"General" PvP Rules Agreement

[Général_Argos]

@ kadar : Why waisting your time trying some show off high heals on lks when it has nothing to do here.??How do you come to the conclusion that a 66+4 vit alch would get a 3k heal???Don't you see that the heal is 1545 on a 63 vit alch?

@AYU :

1-??2:30 is waaaaaaaaaaay too short for pvp fights.??All sinx would agree that it is more than enough, but by chosing a low time limit you nerf defensive characters like priests that could only rely on long run fight to get wins.??Chosing a 5 mins or more time limit won't make the event last 2 times longer since those fight that can be win in 30 sec will still be win in 30 sec.??

2-??Why allowing green pot while not allowing panas? I think panacea should be allowed, but in a small number instead of giving people unlimited green pot, transforming the skill lex divina in a useless crap.??

3-??spells scrolls: I think that spell scrolls only have a minor impact compared to buffing items and buffing food, and that they would be a nice addition.??

4-??Potion pitcher: 15 yellow pots?

[Kadar]

G?n?ral_Argos Wrote:@ kadar : Why waisting your time trying some show off high heals on lks when it has nothing to do here.??How do you come to the conclusion that a 66+4 vit alch would get a 3k heal???Don't you see that the heal is 1545 on a 63 vit alch?

@krim
I didn't have the opportunity to find an alch with only 60-70 vit. I did however find both an LK and a sader. As I explained the amount that Swordie classes get healed is DOUBLE what a normal character heals for due to lvl 10 HP RECOV. Alchemists on the other hand have a skill (potion research) which gives them +50% heal in addition to the regular healing boost from throw pot. So a NORMAL HEAL would be ~2k at that vit (based on half of the doubled swordie class chars). When you add in the +50% from potion research it should be ~3k. Maybe there is a difference in the way it compounds? I have no idea how you got such a low number. It's obviously the low of your range but even then it's a lot lower than it should be. Did you not max potion research? Did you even use a white pot? Is there some sort of glitch which makes targets other than oneself heal for more? Does the HP modifier or HP factor variables have a factor in the way throw pot heals?

@bloody
Oh I'm sorry I didn't know we were talking about EDP all of a sudden. Saying that you think EDP is more broken than Potion Pitcher doesn't make Potion Pitcher any less broken. The rest of that post was about trying to avoid the slippery slope of banning everything. This thread is here so that doesn't happen. Oh and I sure hope everyone did understand what I was trying to say with that excerpt you quoted. It's that this isn't a SinX vs Creator thread. People will always say EDP is overpowered because they're sick of dying to it. What does cloaking have to do with Potion Pitcher? And btw it's not a comeback; It's a reaction to your obviously misguided interpretations to the purpose of this thread. It's for the sake of overall pvp balance that Potion Pitcher should be removed in pvp events.

You have more vit than my homunc and heal for about the same? Maybe there is some unknown homunc throw potion boost?

Also.. did anyone see how fast throw potion could be spammed? If by some freak occurrence throw potion heals alchemists less than other classes then the pure spammability of it still puts it ahead of the Acolyte heal skill. Even more so on high vit builds.

[Général_Argos]

I used potion pitcher with the full potion skill tree maxed.

Again, why don't you do the trivial thing to do wich would be to test it on your own alchemist, instead of using it on some random people and entering into some messy calculations, giving the vit of your alch and the hp it heals.??

With 63 vits it goes from 1500 to 1700 most of the time.

Why don't you come into numbers like cast delay for potion pitcher instead of using a screenshot showing a spam?

I'll do it.??Potion pitcher delay is 0.5 sec.??We can agree that it is two times the heal speed of a priest right? Seeing that priest heals for ~2.5k-3k with staff of recorvery, and that in the same amount of time, a 63 vit alch would heal for 3k-3.5k, we can conclude that the alchemist heals himself a little faster than a priest could do. Buuuuut, the priest can use assumptio to reduce the damage of the oponent, wich would bring the tankable value of a priest as good (or better) than a alch in duel.??Having in mind that if potions pitcher is allowed during duels, it would be limited in the number of potions(~15?), we can conclude that the alch will run out of potions in <10 seconds while trying to tank a edp sonic blow spam from sinx...??I'm talking about edp here because you brung it up here ;o

[Kadar]

You mean Bloody brought EDP up.??I certainly wouldn't bother tanking EDP so much as killing the SinX before he kills you.??Which is what???1 bolt and an AD or simply 2 AD.??Now remember it's not about SinX vs Chemists.??SinX already have the cloaking advantage which is key when fighting a Chemist.??When it comes to classes without cloak like LK what is the Chemist going to do???Really simply spam AD and stay at range.??With throw pots he can out tank anything the LK can throw at him and easily kill the LK long before taking any real damage.??Even if the LK can do a lot of damage he's almost guaranteed to die before he gets in range.??Snipers have a shot if they don't die to the homunc before they can use detect to lure the chemist out.??Even then the Chemist can hide before the Sniper can attack due to cast delay.??

Also it's perfectly fine if a priest ends up tanking better than a chemist.??The priest can't do massive ranged, magic, and physical damage.??However the priest (with staff of recov no less) heals less than a 63 vit alch even with your modest numbers.??Now imagine a high vit alch with 80-90+ vit.??Even ~15 pots is more than enough to survive one pvp match.??The Chemist is more likely to be one shotted but it's not like the priest can harm you and tank at the same time.

(btw my alch is a 1 vit int/dex and he heals 1k per thrown white pot. I'm not going to reset him when I can simply do 'messy' calculations.)

[Bloody]

If you think PP is broken and needs to be banned, then the following list is broken and should be banned as well:

EDP
Asura
AD
Full Divest
Assump
Berserk


While we are at it, let's ban all trans classes from PVP altogether? You are talking about PP spamambility? Are you saying you can make a Creator/Alchie that can outheal an EDP'd Sinx? Well if you can, bring it on, I'd love to see you do that.


And I brought EDP up because you brought PP up. You try to ban a skill on one of my main classes, doesn't it make sense that I try the same to your only class? I don't see you asking for a limited number of PB bottles.

Quote:Unlimited Buffing items, Unlimited green pots/panacea, Unlimited EDP/AD, Unlimited hide/cloak/chasewalk time.

Looks like you want unlimited of whatever makes you go on in a battle till you win. Is it just me or are you just a little too biased?

[Kadar]

Bloody Wrote:If you think PP is broken and needs to be banned, then the following list is broken and should be banned as well:

EDP
Asura
AD
Full Divest
Assump
Berserk


While we are at it, let's ban all trans classes from PVP altogether? You are talking about PP spamambility? Are you saying you can make a Creator/Alchie that can outheal an EDP'd Sinx? Well if you can, bring it on, I'd love to see you do that.

Where did I EVER say I wanted to make an alch class char who could out heal EDP. All you have to do is survive 1 hit and with pots you're pretty much set. If you sit there and take it you're going to die but if you run away and heal during the delay you're fine AND have time to attack. If you have your homunc attacking and you spam AD as soon as the SinX uncloaks (by sight or by attacking you) then any normal build IS GOING TO DIE. You won't even need to heal or use any pots. And that's exactly the point. If you're not up against a SinX or a Champ then you don't really have to worry about a potential 1HKO and with any number of pots AT ALL you WILL kill them before they kill you. Without pots you actually have a chance to lose because they CAN whittle your HP down.

Bloody Wrote:And I brought EDP up because you brought PP up. You try to ban a skill on one of my main classes, doesn't it make sense that I try the same to your only class? I don't see you asking for a limited number of PB bottles.

Kadar Wrote:Unlimited Buffing items, Unlimited green pots/panacea, Unlimited EDP/AD, Unlimited hide/cloak/chasewalk time.

Looks like you want unlimited of whatever makes you go on in a battle till you win. Is it just me or are you just a little too biased?

How about no? So if my main was a SN you would want to ban one of their skills? If my main was a Champ you would want asura banned? If I was a Sniper would you try and ban DS? And you call ME biased? You don't care a thing about pvp balance. You just want the odds to continue to be stacked in your favor. So no Bloody, it doesn't make any sense that you would try and limit my main class just because I see an issue with the balance in one of your skills. This discussion is about balance not what class a player uses.

and btw..
Unlimited buffing items helps all classes. Green pots/panacea helps all skill using classes. Unlimited EDP/AD because in the past those have been limited unjustly and I don't see anything game breaking about them. Unlimited hide/cloak/chasewalk benefits thief classes the most but also benefits anyone with frill and smokie.

Want to know what keeps me going in a battle until I win? SP RECOVERY ITEMS. SinX have low sp so we need to make the most of what we got. If my opinions were all about how to benefit myself wouldn't I want SP items to be allowed? Wouldn't I want links and other such things to be allowed? SinX is a class all about killing in as few hits as possible. So if others get healing items to spam I'm affected less because my goal is to kill them on the first hit anyway. It would actually be easier for me WITH healing items because SinX have two of the most effective escape skills (backslide and cloak) giving me ample time to heal.

So what's not adding up? Oh right.. this supposed bias I have. If I were biased there are so many nonsensical things I would be pushing for. This discussion isn't about you as a person or a player. It's about balancing event style pvp. So don't be a fool seeking petty vindication. Show me why Potion Pitcher is balanced in combination with all of the other Creator skills. Show me how a non SinX or Champ class can kill a smart Creator. Show me how if we had pots it wouldn't be a fancy Rock/Paper/Scissors match.

[GM-Ayu]

Less about how you personally play, more about how/why rules/limitations for a pvp should go the way you proposed it to be.

[teOx]

hmmm... i dont think PP is imba. heal is a better skill considering priests that use it. up to 3k heal with assump.

now you may argue that creators also have ridiculous offense but that doesnt matter, if you cant kill a priest it will kill you in time. so think about the class balance. how many classes will win in pvp against a well geared high priest? very very few. but it would be ridiculous to restrict heal. i dont think PP needs to be justified or restricted to make things easier for other classes. creator is just an awesome class. sucks for classes that dont have DPS to out damage PP.

fact is there are still a good number of classes that can do enough damage to kill a PP spamming creator, so there is no need to restrict it.

ill stick with my original choice which is everything allowed except healing items.

[Général_Argos]

No healing items means no PP teox...

I still stick with this for the rules:??

G?n?ral_Argos Wrote:@AYU :

1-??2:30 is waaaaaaaaaaay too short for pvp fights.??All sinx would agree that it is more than enough, but by chosing a low time limit you nerf defensive characters like priests that could only rely on long run fight to get wins.??Chosing a 5 mins or more time limit won't make the event last 2 times longer since those fight that can be win in 30 sec will still be win in 30 sec.??

2-??Why allowing green pot while not allowing panas? I think panacea should be allowed, but in a small number instead of giving people unlimited green pot, transforming the skill lex divina in a useless crap.??

3-??spells scrolls: I think that spell scrolls only have a minor impact compared to buffing items and buffing food, and that they would be a nice addition.??

4-??Potion pitcher: 15 yellow pots?

Imo creators should have ~15 white pots but I suggested yellows to try making a compromise...

[teOx]

fine let me fix it since you like to point out wording mistakes

ill stick with my original choice which is everything allowed except healing items except those used for skills