ToH Mass PVP

[mahawirasd]

there has been many threads made about this part of the event, but i feel perhaps we can make this event work for all involved without having to make a new map or a whole page of new scripts. Sure we will still face problems with guild triangles showing up and/or random DCs, errors, w/e - but perhaps we can still work around these issues to make it somewhat more enjoyable for all involved albeit being a wee bit more time-consuming.

Once there was an idea that ToH mass pvp should be for a select group from each side to battle it out rather than have all the peasants participate in a formless melee so that the side with the better skill will turn up victorious.
This idea was shot down (with good reason) because it would adversely penalize the side that actually brought more meat shield/cannon fodder to the equation regardless of their skill level.

Personally, i feel that there is merit on both sides of the argument - ToH mass pvp should, to some extent, value BOTH the amount of people brought along by each side as well as the skill level of the players involved.

So how best should we go about doing this with the tools that we already have?
I propose that instead of a best-of-3, we make ToH Mass PVP a best-of-7. I'm not proposing of doing 7 rounds of our regular melee, but rather in the following composition:
1. Regular all-out melee
2. Regular all-out melee
3. Regular all-out melee
4. Select group of 12 from each side
5. Select group of 12 from each side
6. Select group of 12 from each side
7. Tie breaker: 1v1

Explanations:
- all rounds will be done in the same map (except perhaps the tie breaker if you feel like the 1v1 ToH pvp map is better)
- rounds 4 through 6 will be done by the GM recalling the "DARK1" and "LIGHT1" group which the participants get to establish in 2 minutes after the conclusion of round 3
- the chosen champion for round 7 will be determined by leaving 1 person in the "LIGHT1" and "DARK1" group. The participants will be given 2 minutes to do this after the conclusion of round 6.

Why the setup? Wouldn't this penalize the side with more bodies but less skill/gear/w/e? Why not do the different setups intermittently?
because this way, whoever brought more bodies only need to win rounds 1 through 3 by proving that their numbers do count for something and only 1 of the select 12 round to prove that they do have the requisite skillful 12 to obliterate the other side.
Conversely, if the side with less participants argue that they are "more skillful" or w/e than the other side and that mass pvp is just a brainless activity to prove strength in numbers, they have the whole rounds 4 through 6 to prove their words.

Ok, now for the negative side: more time spent in ToH.
assuming 3 mins fighting time, 2 mins recall+assembly, and 2 mins tactics, thats 7 mins per round. 7 rounds + the 2 mins setup needed for rounds 4 and 7 means 7x7 + 2x2 = 53 mins rather than just 14 mins.
First off, I wholly appreciate the lengths the GM teams have gone through to shorten ToH times - the first few ToHs i went to used to last 8-9 hours even with only 60ish participants compared to 4-5 hours for 80-100 participants nowadays. Nevertheless, spending more time for mass pvp this way would hopefully reduce the amount of butthurt from DCs etc when there is only 2 rounds (3 for a tie breaker) to fight in. Hopefully this way the average person will get to participate in 3 or 4 rounds (assuming they DC half of it) and actually contribute rather than fatal-erroring/freak-dc-ing on 2 rounds and never getting a say in winning that extra 10 points.
If you still get 7 straight DCs in a row, then i can only say: "sorry dude, did my best"...

I understand that this means more work for the GM team, but i do hope you take into consideration how this suggestion might just be the workaround many have been calling for.


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[Child of Bodom]

-1 with the amount of ppl who play snipers there arnt gonna be 12 people pvp built to make a skills masss pvp worth trying. Not to mention the only people who have pots for that many rounds are WS's and Creas. I like the idea of fixing mass but really theres no fair way to do it.

[2cat]

Isn't choosing between light and dark just like choosing a guild? You can't tell the guild to choose only 12 people to do WoE because its unfair they have more people. As far as I know, Dark used to win, now its Light. Dark just has to man up.

[Incarn]

except they're not guilds so dark can't just 'man up' when everyone joins light to leech off the free 10 points and get invisible wings

-1 suggestion though, same reason as bod

[Lena]

Incarn Wrote:except they're not guilds so dark can't just 'man up' when everyone joins light to leech off the free 10 points and get invisible wings

-1 suggestion though, same reason as bod

this ^

[mahawirasd]

@2cat:
well, the idea behind choosing a group of people as well as a select champion to fight the sides' battle(s) for them is not new - it's been done since the time of ancient armies to avoid massive casualties on both sides whenever possible. This notion is slightly easier to adapt to ToH than WoE because WoE guilds have the ability to gather recruits by offering perks and benefits whereas the dark/light allegiance has no active way to recruit anyone - people just sign up any way they want to. Light got their invisible wings which some people supposedly like for non-intrusiveness and certain "strategies" while Dark supposedly has cookies (i never got any!!)

I started out light when dark was the hip way to go, and i never complained about toh mass pvp because i never count on those 10 points to get my wings - took me almost a year to get my wings as a light monk back then. Nowadays i just do ToH for the fun of it and i am somewhat more inclined now to use more consumables in ToH than i did then - i'm not complaining about losing, i get my tickets just fine nowadays, it's just that if i dc right after using an edp and cloaking before hitting anyone, i kinda want more rounds to make up for that dc. If i end up burning even more EDPs to dcs, then so be it - but i'd rather chance 7 edps rather than just 2 knowing that the chances i will dc 2 times in a row is 25% while the chances i will DC 7 times in a row is significantly lower (not gonna do math permutations this early in the day, but it is definitely lower). I demand satisfaction!

@bodom:
that is exactly why things should change for mass pvp. So that people know it's not just some free-points event or some lolololollolletsshootatourownpeopleandscrewaroundfortworoundstrololololol event. It's a trial, and a trial is not just about bringing over 9000 cannon fodder, a trial should be about skill, strategy, preparation AND rationing - for aeons wars have been lost and won on rations.
I do agree that perhaps 7 rounds is extreme, but that is why it is a best of 7 (meaning you need 4 victories) - that way you have the option to ration out your pots and strategies to wear your opponents out to strike back on the 4th round, thus forcing both sides to strategize more carefully and thus allowing for more permutations on the flow of battle in each round.
That way people will enjoy and respect the mass battle portion as a meaningful part of the event and actually show up for it.

I do realize that perhaps going from 2/3 to 4/7 rounds is a bit much, but for this change to work without adversely penalizing the side who brought more people i don't think proposing schemes such as Mass-Group-1v1 would have been fair.
So maybe we can do this: Mass-Mass-Group-Group-1v1. Do note that this means that the amount of effort needed from "whoever-has-more-people-but-less-skill-side" is increased quite dramatically because now they have to win 50% of the "skill-required-group-stage" rather than just 33%. I do like this option, but i initially feared proposing that option because i feel such a huge change should be eased into.

Anyway, the other reason why "group" is important is to finally acknowledge the importance of wizards rather than adversely penalizing them (team-kill) because RO can only account for a 12 man group - which hopefully means that in the future there will be more incentive for wizards to join and a realization by the participants that ToH is no longer a "trololol let's just go as a sniper and win easy wings" event.


W

[raphael.cruger]

I'd like to point out that in November dark won the battle. Also in December they might have won had not all their melee killer classes been hiding behind traps to be picked off by snipers while not being able to move.

-1 Mass battle is fine as is.
I JUST WANT LESS DC D;

[Summerstream]

One small teeny, tiny problem with that rationing suggestion: You cannot trade in ToH. It's stated in the rules in fact.

-1 as well, as most people don't come geared UNLESS they do the PVP trial. Otherwise it's mostly burst damage.

[The Legendary Joe]

2cat Wrote:Isn't choosing between light and dark just like choosing a guild? You can't tell the guild to choose only 12 people to do WoE because its unfair they have more people. As far as I know, Dark used to win, now its Light. Dark just has to man up.

Difference is you can't just straight up quit light/dark.??You have to pay money??(either 10 dollars RL cash to the donates, or win the monthly fairy auction with zillions of zenny) for a GM service to switch the sides (and all of your currently won toH wings and helms) to the other sides, and there's no real leader of those two sides.??Sure you have the storyline leaders like Erebos and Lady thea, and the GM leaders who usually tend to quit RO after a period of time.??I kinda miss the petty squabbles between GM-Mystra and GM-Ayu's eudoxie character =/.

I agree that it'd be better that it was organized, but??it's supposed be chaotic. I'm glad you compared it to woe,??because it's supposed to be like a War between light and Dark.

Skill of the players is a factor, but get enough people wailing on someone and eventually they will fall. I think each loss should mean Mass recruitment to their side, but not everyone agrees with that.

Outside of finding a leader on both sides that players of their allegiance can respect and follow in combat, there's generally not much you can do.??Most of the time when the GM's give you that time before the match to plan what you're going to do, and pre-buff, and whatnot,??people generally?ignore everything and?just go in guns blazing and??end up making stupid mistakes, and that turns it into a game??of numbers rather than skill. Doesn't help when you go into it seeing??that The other side has like 4 times as many people as you do.

My main dislike with mass toH aside from the lack of organization is that with larger attendances, you need multiple parties on your side, and that gets people caught in the friendly fire. Sometimes it's deliberate, othertimes its not.

[mahawirasd]

@raphael:
this is not about "who" is winning, but rather about making "who wins" a real trial of skills rather than just "bring as many cannon fodder as possible".
and again, more rounds mean less pain caused by DCing in a round (unless you're extremely unlucky)

@summer:
i was referring to self-rationing more than anything, same as how people in pvp trials ration themselves (they have to do 5 rounds)
and the second thing you said would actually make it an incentive for people to either bring gears for pvp or participate in the pvp event to streamline themselves - a good thing, no?

@joe:
that 2 last paragraph about "proper strategies" and "team kill" is exactly why i feel a "group" phase is important.

all in all, i'm not saying that we should swallow my suggestions wholesale - any permutation of it is welcome. The main idea is to help think of possible workarounds that do not have to involve the whole gm team having to make a new map complete with scripts and test it out for months before any change occurs...


W