January 2012 ToH Appreciation Thread

[Former-GM-Forge]

Yes, the timer attaches to the person who starts the wave. So if Circe started it, the timer would attach to Circe. If I started it, it would attach to me. That is what a player based timer is. That is why, when Glyph DC'd, the ToH Monster Trial broke. Is that clear enough?

Do you know if the script will res people and warp them out of the area when the next wave is started, Shinigami? I know it is possible to do it, as does Circe. Circe did not know at the time that the script did not cover that possibility, but knew that it was possible that it did cover it. Circe also did not know if it would cause more problems related to individual participants ToH scores if the players were manually res'd and removed from the lanes. Without access to the script, knowing that the people are in there does not help at all. There was no way for them to know that the players would not be res'd and warped out of the lanes when the next wave was started, except by starting the next wave. So yes, it is covered in EVERYTHING they have access to. No access to the script means no access to the knowledge of what would happen to those people.

Glyph has information on how to run it if nothing goes wrong. If something does go wrong, he has no information on how to fix it. Where is his compensation? I don't think the attitude he was given counts as fair compensation for trying his best to fix a problem noone ever had before.

What's wrong with GMs asking you to be a little patient and lienient when a brand new problem arises that they do not have the access to completely and properly deal with, instead of you having a go at them? Fairness issue.

As for Glyphs response. It is somewhat inappropriate, yes, but you have been pushing it. We have explained to you repeatedly now, and you seem to fail to understand. You do not have all the information, and therefore are not in a position to tell the GMs what they should have done.


Edit: Ptah, the timer never reached 0 because it was destroyed when Glyph was DC'd. Therefore the usual things that happen at the time it reaches 0 did not happen. Circe knew this. What Circe COULD NOT KNOW was that there was no failsafe in the script at the start of the next timer to make sure those things that were supposed to have happened did happen.
The GMs had 3 options:
-Do what they did to try and get things running again.
-Wait an indeterminate amount of time for Pandora to arrive.
-End the monster trial right there and continue with the ToH's other trials.

If you want to start pulling the Final Rule, I'll pull it straight back. You are all hindering *my* playing experience by continuing this discussion. I could be massacring orcs right now.

[Ptah]

First of all, take care to read who are you answering to, Forge.
But that's not the point. What done is done. And what happened is happened. And all that stuff. And anything else you might tell in future.

GM-Forge Wrote:Do you know if the script will res people and warp them out of the area when the next wave is started, Shinigami? I know it is possible to do it, as does Circe.

Nop, i don't. And if they weren't sure what stopped them from checking it out while telling people NOT TO GO in like in happened in 4th way? You know, when people aren't sure and can't go make sure for real from source, they make few blank shots to make sure. What? We're not sure? Let's just continue and see if it fixes itself.

GM-Forge Wrote:Glyph has information on how to run it if nothing goes wrong. If something does go wrong, he has no information on how to fix it. Where is his compensation? I don't think the attitude he was given counts as fair compensation for trying his best to fix a problem noone ever had before.

That's the point. If nothing happens. I really don't believe someone goes: "You'll run this month ToH, and that's that". It's on voluntary basis, and along with great power comes great responsibility. This time it was just power. Oh well.
And even no one had that problem before, it's in GM's hands to choose right way to fix it, and if the chosen way was wrong... You get the idea.

GM-Glyph Wrote:And as for asking for compensation, can we get some for the hour of nonstop abuse while we tried to fix things and get the event moving again?

Did i forget to mention that i still think it GM's fault? No?
Abuse or not, you got what you wanted. You wanted to host ToH to get a bit more butthurt for snipers, it's not player's fault that you fell into the hole that you were digging for others. You had fun running what, 3 ToHs without problems? In my opinion that was compensation on that, not the other way around.

GM-Glyph Wrote:And if you think I'm being inappropriate and snarky at this point, you are right. I am annoyed at the fact that while trying to fix everything, and finding out that a lot of it is beyond our power to control, due to a random fluke disconnect on my part, that some players decided they were entitled to ridicule and heap on the blame.

Excuse me, but you're the ones heaping all the blame on "random DC" and "none of this ever happened before". If you want to see it that way - fine, but don't count other people to follow your point of view. I clearly explained WHY i think it's not those-things-you-blame fault, but your own, yet all i hear is "you're not right, it's not my fault". Fine, tell me where I'm wrong, prove to me that my point of view has absolutely no basis under it, and I'll cut it off, don't just go "it's so because it is".

EDIT:
Oh damn, i just found out a 4th way right there! And even without knowing what script does! How awesome of me.
And if you can pull it back, i can pull it back twice then? Since i'm not able to play now from getting headache reading this peace of sheet?

EDIT2:
On the other hand i just feel all warm and fuzzy inside from telling what i think and not get any real response. Makes me feel right. Whatever, just another thought: after they failed at continuing, just finishing monster trial would make a better choice imo. I suggested few times to just go to wave 5 giving out 5 points. Going further, ending the trial and giving all 10 points would definitely make a nice move. Or give a 1/2 bonus trivia question with known answer. Sure, there would be complaints and all even then, BUT there would be less, since it wouldn't cause a huge time waste. Not to mention saving Glyph's nerves since he wouldn't get that 1.5hr long "abuse".

[Former-GM-Forge]

First of all, I was replying to Shinigami. I fail to see your point.

Second of all, I'm done with explaining the same things over and over. I tried to do it in the least technical terms I could in the hopes that people could understand.

I don't care if you all want to blame Glyph for something he had no control over.
I don't care if you want to blame him for doing his best to try and fix it as quickly as possible.
I don't care if you want to have a go at Glyph and Circe for doing what I consider to be basic troubleshooting.
I don't care if you want to blame Circe for giving people something to do while they waited for the ToH to continue.

I'm going to go back to massacring orcs.
Actually, scratch that. I don't even want to look at RO now.

[demishock]

Wow. Okay. I'm just going to step over the giant pile of wank and say that I think the GMs handled the situation perfectly fine given the options available. I don't understand all the GM hate on this server; I really don't. Maybe it's because the last server I was on before heRO, the GMs were a bunch of lazy, unresponsive twits who never let the players know what was going on or did any events at all and never added new content, etc. By comparison, this GM team is nothing short of awesome, so it really ticks me off when I see them getting all kinds of flack over what's really not a huge deal. Oh noes, my gaming experience didn't go according to plan! The world is ending!

I understand being FRUSTRATED, but not this all-out entitled ANGER.

The GMs periodically checked in to let us know that they were still trying to get a handle on it, Circe's trivia was obviously an attempt to give us SOMETHING to do while we waited (you know, besides sit around whining about "what's taking so loooooong?!"), they all apologized as far as I saw (sorry; I don't feel the need to take screencaps of that sort of thing), and all they asked from us was some patience. And we couldn't even give them that. They give us a free RO experience with all sorts of custom content and events and whatnot, and we give them nothing but crap. It's really kind of disgusting.

I'm sure I'm going to get accused of butt-kissing but at this point I really don't care. I'm completely sick of all the whining, and I don't want the GMs to feel like we ALL feel that way, because I know I'm not the only one who doesn't. We're just apparently not as vocal about it. So I'm being vocal today.

ANYWAY. As far as the actual ToH went, I thought it was pretty balanced. I only managed to scrape 75 points this time, and that's only because Dark won the mass PVP. *___* ToH is supposed to be challenging, as many people have said in the past, and I was definitely challenged. Only won rounds 1 and 3 at monster and then got 40/50 on item. Got 1 trivia question (I could've gotten two if I hadn't typed the wrong A-word; I was thinking "armor" but typed "accessory" lmao) and the Dark win. And now for my own apology - sorry for freaking out during the mass PVP, guys! I was tired and cranky and when we lost the first round I was feeling rather pessimistic. XD; Should've kept it to myself instead of taking it out on you guys.

[Firenza]

*skips all the convo above because it's a big pile of crap*

Monster: balanced. I understand that they were emergency monsters but the choice of Ragged Zombies was a bit odd. From a Sniper's POV, they were easier than Agavs.

Item: hard. What was up with the 26 Genie Lamps? 18% drop rate, that's about 144 Ifrits... in 20 minutes?! Not to mention I only had 2 Stellar Emblems after killing about 60 Bacsojins. I know the "it's a trial, not a walk in the park of heroes" thing, but don't make it IMPOSSIBLE to get 50 points. By the way, did anyone get 50 this time around?

Trivia: balanced. Because it had at least one question everybody would know.

Dark winning was great, even if we got some big help

I would just like to add that for those taking the problems so seriously, this is a private RO server, not a bloody world tournament which has just cost you your life savings or whatever. It's not the end of the world. You can't expect perfection from people we don't even give a single penny to. In the end, ToH resumed and everything (except that final PvP Trial battle) went on as planned.

[Shinigami l0_0l]

GM-Forge Wrote:Yes, the timer attaches to the person who starts the wave. So if Circe started it, the timer would attach to Circe. If I started it, it would attach to me. That is what a player based timer is. That is why, when Glyph DC'd, the ToH Monster Trial broke. Is that clear enough?

again.. lemme say it in clearer way. is glyph idiot enough not to realize that there's a very high chance and very logical for the timer to be attached to him as the starter of the wave?

GM-Forge Wrote:
Do you know if the script will res people and warp them out of the area when the next wave is started, Shinigami? I know it is possible to do it, as does Circe. Circe did not know at the time that the script did not cover that possibility, but knew that it was possible that it did cover it. Circe also did not know if it would cause more problems related to individual participants ToH scores if the players were manually res'd and removed from the lanes. Without access to the script, knowing that the people are in there does not help at all. There was no way for them to know that the players would not be res'd and warped out of the lanes when the next wave was started, except by starting the next wave. So yes, it is covered in EVERYTHING they have access to. No access to the script means no access to the knowledge of what would happen to those people.

ok i got no idea about that. but, did the GM know that they could make a blank wave? blank wave as is they ask the next player not to enter the warp, and GM entering each warp to check the post DC situation?
did they do that? or is it ever crossed in their minds?
it's a much better decision than such a thing as "let's just continue and hopes everything will be alright"

and for glyph
i never host ToH, but from your way of hosting, i guess u dont have enough experience to be a host. and whenver u made a mistake, u never apologize. most of the time when u screwed up, panda will be the one who fix your problem

GM-Pandora Wrote:Be helpful toward others (both GMs and players).

Be humble and selfless, this is not a "power" position to rule others, GMs are there to help the players.

Be ready to receive PMs with whine, annoying questions, suggestions, lots of rants and other comments, some of that can be bothersome sometimes but it's part of being a GM.

Patience is definitely a must!

is it remind you about something? people rage because of your way to handle things.

[Necrophiliac]

Wow so are people just whining (to use a nicer word) for the sake of whining? What exactly are you people trying to get out of this thread? If you just want to make other people feel bad you really should be finding a better way to spend your time.

[ChaosPrince]

*Skipped all the Drama*

First ToH for me ever, liked it despite technical difficulty. Hey, if it's a DC, he can't control it.

Monsters = first 3 rounds, easy for my class, last one was just... couldn't run pass it.
PVP: If this keeps up, 95% of the people will chose Item.

Skipped Trivia and Mass Battle, still scored 55 points as a first timer

Thank you guys, and I'm looking forward to the next one.

[Former-GM-Circe]

The starting GM is not the only thing the timer could have been attached to.
Had I not known this myself from past encounters (namely Forge having seen the script and mentioning it), I would have assumed it was attached to the NPC, as that is far more logical than attaching it to a player??in this case.

There are multiple ways to attach a timer, and this is the downside to this one.


As for calling Glyph an "idiot" for it, I will point you back to the rules. Particularly the one about player respect. This also covers GMs. We've punished players for keeping such language against people up, and should it continue here, that punishment will stem from here.


One prejudice us GMs have, especially us scripters, is that we generally assume things will work how we would do it.
For me, if it was a player based timer, that there would be a check in in case this did happen, and would redo the ending of the unfinished wave.
As we found out, this obviously wasn't the case.

When we noticed that, we did do a blank wave, and warned everyone over broadcast not to enter. We still had someone entering.
The only reason that that someone was not removed from ToH as warned was that his last login date confirmed that he'd only just logged on as he claimed.

You'll remember me broadcasting asking for someone from the first wave to PM me, so that I could grab a first wave name. By this stage, Forge was online, and as he had seen the script before, was able to recall the name of the variable that indicted a players completion.
We did not know if this variable was set for entrance into the lane, or for entrance into the lane as well as exiting (ie points received).
Unfortunately, it only counts going in, so we could not just use this to check anyone who claimed to be from that wave (the one where it broke and did not give points) and warp them past the first portal, to run again.

We had no way to confirm who had been in that fine, first wave, and those doomed second and third.
We could have found the not entered at all 4 wavers, though.


As little as you may believe it, Bisu, we're just given a "this is how it should go" and that's that. With my first ToH, I even had Salt there to back me up and help me, and tell me every step, because I'm utterly pedantic and afraid I'll choose a wrogn option and break everything. However, even then, that was only the possibility of choose the wrong option in the menus.
It didn't even come close to start covering "what to do if the script borks".

Also, when we say "We're sorry for the delay and inconveniences" etc, we mean we. I fail to see why it needs to come from every single person. If you're on a phone call to a company, and were put on hold for an hour or two and they say "We're sorry for the delay and inconvenience", do you expect them to get every person in their company, or even any people in their call center/support department that also did not/were not able to answer your call during this time to file up on the phone and personally apologise?
The GM team is effectively a department. This is why, when we post things of our own, unattached opinion on official things or feedback, we point it out that it is not attached to the entire team.


We do not have access to every script. We do not have access to the database. We are not omnipotent.
... Except for Panda, obviously. Minus the omnipotent.
There are plenty of things that only she can see. There are plenty of things that only she can do. There are scripts only she knows exactly which way they work, when there are plenty of possibilities.
This is why we call her in when we do not have the ability to.


We alerted Pandoa as soon as it happened, but she was not around at that time. So, we began to troubleshoot, and try to fix it.
For reference, Panda arrived back well before I'd even started the trivia. I suggested the trivia to her at that time, and she said yeah, go for it.
Why? Because she also needed to look at things to see what should happen and how we should proceed. There was no blanket "just do this and voila!".


I have never, in my entire life, wished so much during that time that I could take on the same protocols that those working or troubleshooting for a call center or pretty much any business could do.
"I'm sorry sir, but if you keep that tone and attitude/abuse up, I will terminate your call/connection. Please calm down."
We were getting abuse in main. We were getting abuse in PMs. We were getting abuse in all chat. From the start. Not a 10 min wait in. Not a 20 min wait in. Not an hour wait in. From. the. start.
Even after, obviously, we were getting conspiracy theories that apparently, no DC-crash happened at all.


As for something you all seem to be forgetting.
It was the DC-crash that borked things.
Yes, attempting the next run also added a little, and had we actually had explicit knowledge as to how the event worked, or knowledge about what to do in a situation that had never happened before, we would have been able to continue without calling on Panda... still with a delay.
Had we had the script in our hands, we still would have been able to continue without Panda... still with a large delay. That script is huge, and doesn't read itself!
Second wave, where the DC happened, was still the major problem. We had no way of telling who had exited in that first half, and who hadn't.

Effectively, we did all the trouble shooting, and passed that info onto Panda, who, luckily, was returning at that time.


The upside is, we now know that to do in such a situation, which will still cause a decent delay, even if it doesn't actually address it, and people still complain that the compromise that the situation is. :/

It comes down to that we had to make the best with what power and information we had, and try to find the fairest, most accurate and balanced solution.





Thank you, Firenza, demishock and ChaosPrince.


Wordwordswords.

[Shinigami l0_0l]

GM-Circe Wrote:The starting GM is not the only thing the timer could have been attached to.
Had I not known this myself from past encounters (namely Forge having seen the script and mentioning it), I would have assumed it was attached to the NPC, as that is far more logical than attaching it to a player??in this case.

There are multiple ways to attach a timer, and this is the downside to this one.

yeah, i wonder why it attached to the GM actually

GM-Circe Wrote:As for calling Glyph an "idiot" for it, I will point you back to the rules. Particularly the one about player respect. This also covers GMs. We've punished players for keeping such language against people up, and should it continue here, that punishment will stem from here.

i dont rly want to use that words as well, but i guess my implicit message didnt delivered/received properly, so i use the most clear sentence. i dont want to use that words actually.

GM-Circe Wrote:When we noticed that, we did do a blank wave, and warned everyone over broadcast not to enter. We still had someone entering.
The only reason that that someone was not removed from ToH as warned was that his last login date confirmed that he'd only just logged on as he claimed.

way to late..
this should be done post-DC situation. the decision made that time is just like, lets just continue and pray everything will be alright. The host didnt check the 2nd wave situation (since the delay between 2nd and 3rd wave is not that long)

GM-Circe Wrote:You'll remember me broadcasting asking for someone from the first wave to PM me, so that I could grab a first wave name. By this stage, Forge was online, and as he had seen the script before, was able to recall the name of the variable that indicted a players completion.
We did not know if this variable was set for entrance into the lane, or for entrance into the lane as well as exiting (ie points received).
Unfortunately, it only counts going in, so we could not just use this to check anyone who claimed to be from that wave (the one where it broke and did not give points) and warp them past the first portal, to run again.

We had no way to confirm who had been in that fine, first wave, and those doomed second and third.
We could have found the not entered at all 4 wavers, though.

the one who enter the wave broadcasted automatically right? so there's a list of the player who already enter the 1st wave somewhere
and the one who exit the warp broadcasted as well. so there should be another list about this thing

GM-Circe Wrote:Also, when we say "We're sorry for the delay and inconveniences" etc, we mean we. I fail to see why it needs to come from every single person. If you're on a phone call to a company, and were put on hold for an hour or two and they say "We're sorry for the delay and inconvenience", do you expect them to get every person in their company, or even any people in their call center/support department that also did not/were not able to answer your call during this time to file up on the phone and personally apologise?
The GM team is effectively a department. This is why, when we post things of our own, unattached opinion on official things or feedback, we point it out that it is not attached to the entire team.

what caused the delay? ok i got it that the DC took share of the blame, but not totaly. you guys made a wrong decision as well. i guess u should apologize and try to explain to the player. this is what i meant on my very first post in this thread

GM-Circe Wrote:We do not have access to every script. We do not have access to the database. We are not omnipotent.
... Except for Panda, obviously. Minus the omnipotent.
There are plenty of things that only she can see. There are plenty of things that only she can do. There are scripts only she knows exactly which way they work, when there are plenty of possibilities.
This is why we call her in when we do not have the ability to.

i guess panda ended up summoned on most of glyph ToH to fix problem. i feel bad for her.

GM-Circe Wrote:We alerted Pandoa as soon as it happened, but she was not around at that time. So, we began to troubleshoot, and try to fix it.
For reference, Panda arrived back well before I'd even started the trivia. I suggested the trivia to her at that time, and she said yeah, go for it.
Why? Because she also needed to look at things to see what should happen and how we should proceed. There was no blanket "just do this and voila!".

i dont mind that u doing trivia. i just hate the question.
what's my favorite soda? what's forge fave color?
what a lame joke. its totally subjective. people can lie and no one can confirm.
that's why i said its a silly trivia

GM-Circe Wrote:I have never, in my entire life, wished so much during that time that I could take on the same protocols that those working or troubleshooting for a call center or pretty much any business could do.
"I'm sorry sir, but if you keep that tone and attitude/abuse up, I will terminate your call/connection. Please calm down."
We were getting abuse in main. We were getting abuse in PMs. We were getting abuse in all chat. From the start. Not a 10 min wait in. Not a 20 min wait in. Not an hour wait in. From. the. start.
Even after, obviously, we were getting conspiracy theories that apparently, no DC-crash happened at all.

that's part of GM life? with/without error?

GM-Circe Wrote:As for something you all seem to be forgetting.
It was the DC-crash that borked things.
Yes, attempting the next run also added a little, and had we actually had explicit knowledge as to how the event worked, or knowledge about what to do in a situation that had never happened before, we would have been able to continue without calling on Panda... still with a delay.
Had we had the script in our hands, we still would have been able to continue without Panda... still with a large delay. That script is huge, and doesn't read itself!
Second wave, where the DC happened, was still the major problem. We had no way of telling who had exited in that first half, and who hadn't.

but your way to handle things is not wise. i know how hard it is to make an omnipotent error-handling script (if its even possible), that's why GM still need to host the event.
i never blame the script, and now i get that the DC share the blame as well. but again, GM still made a mistake with the error handling.

i wonder what knowledge given to the host of ToH. this thing should be fixed as well.

GM-Circe Wrote:The upside is, we now know that to do in such a situation, which will still cause a decent delay, even if it doesn't actually address it, and people still complain that the compromise that the situation is. :/

yeah yeah.. ToH is always come with delay. i guess me and ptah got nothing to say about this part