fix cheap reflec on EVERYTHING pls

[Demogorgon]

Just wanted to blow some Steam about current meta.

With the current SVN cheap reflect methods allows everything to be reflected with 2 people (3 people tops but theres enough delay gear that you need only 2).

This totally kills the meta of high end mvps,why bother setting up a nice party for sming or valking if i can just cheese them with half the people in one third of the time.
So after Orcus implementation (the gear is so good that demand of dmant/boots and proxys has declined to the point of uselessness) and muspel 99 grinding thats another change that streamlines the games meta to a point where only a few things are left to do if you care a bit about increasing your ingame wealth on the way.

Also,even if you wanna do the whole party thing,you cant find those MVPs anyway.

I wouldnt go so far as to call reflect an abuse but its definitely a cheap tactic that shouldnt be succesful in high end mvping.The way the meta works tho,i can assume that this will be fixed in a few months (take the last wave of bb abuses eg). This leads to the whole server buyrushing reflectgears and basically ruin all peoples fun bc of their own greed.

Protect them from their own greed for easy cheap loot and fix the Game pls.

[Menace651]

Reflect killing MVP's has always been do-able even before this SVN (bee, Valk, etc.). Yes it's cheap and an abuse of a game mechanic but most methods of killing high end MVP's include abuses of game mechanics (portal asura'ing, icewall, etc.). You can kill MVP's with 2-3 people using portal asura too. If they "fix" reflect then they should fix portal asura'ing and DB room flywing asura'ing and make people go back to old school "tank and spank" MVP tactics.

Reflecting also requires some good gears, consumables and a lot of coordination to be able to do it right. So it's not as cheap as you think.

[Demogorgon]

I agree that portal asura is a problem too. That doesnt diminish the fact that Reflect is a Problem in itself tho. Both have the same root problem,abusing a broken mechanic (3 sec safety on entering warp / detection radius of mobs and movement tick system allowing ress spam wo getting aggro) to basically not interact with the mvp.
In my book not interacting with the monsters while farming them is not playing the game.

And yes it was possible before but svn did buff reflect tactics like mad. they tele way more rarely and main thing is that mvp now always attacks first. so depending on how many mobs there are its now way faster since you wont get permanently oneshot by the other mobs before you can reflect.

I wouldnt count bb mvps as a problem tho,bc all of them are low-mid end mvps and are easy enough anyway, i can also bb spam in guild hall wo tele/fwing,no problem.

I used reflect often enough that i know it takes some preparation but its nothing compared to not only the gear/preparation needed for other tactics but also the hassle of executing them (bc you have to actually interact with the mvps).

It has always been used but with the above factors it had an annoyance factor that made other options viable/often preferrable.

With current svn your gimping yourself if you use any other strategy.

People (myself included) tend to take the silver spoon when theyre fed with it,its human psychology,its still bad for the meta and i hope the gm team shares this sentiment.

I really dont wanna piss in your coffe or any others who use this strategy frequently, just think it will be better for this server if we preserve one or two things in this game that actually need a party to do.
Thats why i mentioned earlier cases like muspel or bb abuse, its the same problem. everyone is happy bc they get their stuff but obliterating the few parts that are still somewhat challenging is bad on the long run.

[The Legendary Joe]

With this news, maybe I oughta revive my Soul Linkers and Eske MVP's so the MVP will get +300% atk with which people can reflect back.

[azurerogue]

I think the bigger problem here is that some MVPs are just too stupidly broken to be worth killing the "right" way (and what does that mean, anyways? the "right" way?). Beelzebub is a good example of a compromise. He's tough enough to need a well-organized party but not so ridiculous that you *need* to use tricks to kill it. SM, Nidd, and a few others, on the other hand, are so ridiculously hard to do the old-fashioned way that it's not even close to worth it.

What's broken is the whole system of high-end MVPs, not just reflect or portal asura.

EDIT: Not claiming this is simply a heRO issue, it's a more general classic RO problem.

[Aaronock]

(10-02-2014 09:21 AM)azurerogue Wrote:  I think the bigger problem here is that some MVPs are just too stupidly broken to be worth killing the "right" way (and what does that mean, anyways? the "right" way?). Beelzebub is a good example of a compromise. He's tough enough to need a well-organized party but not so ridiculous that you *need* to use tricks to kill it. SM, Nidd, and a few others, on the other hand, are so ridiculously hard to do the old-fashioned way that it's not even close to worth it.

What's broken is the whole system of high-end MVPs, not just reflect or portal asura.

EDIT: Not claiming this is simply a heRO issue, it's a more general classic RO problem.

Pretty much this.
In other words, Gravity sucks at game design~

[Demogorgon]

totally agree on this,the top end mvps (i think its just sm,,nydd and espacially valk,ganbantein + instant dispel + oneshotting pretty much everything) are overtuned to a point where it forces you to play the cheap mechanics game.

Best Design from original Mobs is Mammoth i think (very tricky but never unfair) and the custom mobs are actually designed really well,orcus eg is a bit tricky with sc,trapping mobs,multiple elements and ele change but always stays fair and managable.

Still, the good old portal asura took a skilled and coordinated champ/lure combo and some lazy afk portalsupport jobs + good gear,so you had a feeling of accomplishment bc its actually still at least a bit interactive and hard so its a rewarding experience for me to finally see the mvp screen on lets say nydd or sm.

For me Reflec just doesnt have any feel of accomplishment its justz spamming ress out of aggrorange till you pick up loot,it actually FEELS like im breaking the game.
i know reflec always existed but like i mentioned earlier,the hassle that it used to be balanced it out against regular partys.

and good luck to assemble good old school party and then see that probably all of them are dead already bc its just too easy now.
even in the old days when 2/3 guilds competed for sm it was always possible to get him from time to time bc the hassle of recruitement was a hindrance in camping. have fun trying to snatch a 12h timer with 15m tops setup + killtime

[whitedraw]

I know quite a few peeps are camping out SM with reflects these days. NOw i know why I see quite a few people running around and dying places all the time. Reflecting uh.
Before SVN, reflecting stuff always problems to everyone esp, when you want to troll other party (MVP tele right away if something reflected)

I dont know about it now though.