heRO-Server Forum

Why have the Dragon Manteaus been moved to Nidhoggur MVP?

This is not a whine, I am looking for the reasoning behind this, to be completely honest.

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Pantie[1] + Undershirt[1] combo: AGI + 5, Flee Rate + 10 (total flee +15) Def +6 MDef +1
Dragon Vest[1] + Dragon Manteau[1]: AGI + 6, FLEE + 15 (total flee +21) Def +8 MDef +8


So, dragon combo beats the second best (from my point of view; sometimes Skin of Ventus is superior) equipment set by 6 flee (included 1 agi), 2 def and 7 mdef. To make panties[1] and undershirt[1] one needs high amounts of zeny and luck, while to get dragon vests one needs to hunt in a transcendent gear-required med-high level difficulty dungeon (Nidhoggur lv1).

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Now, I personally think keeping both vests and manteaus on Dracos was not the brightest idea on Gravity's part, as this completely destroys any value of panties[1] and undershirts[1]. Still, moving a part of a set to Nidhoggur MVP - a set only an agi character can really use - this combined with buffing that MVP above Satan Morroc level seems a bit... cruel.

Right now there is not a single Dragon Manteau on the server, which makes Dragon Vests kind of useless, making Nidhoggur dungeon much less appealing for people willing to get some zeny.

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Which classes can really use the Dragon Vest + Manteau combination (let me focus on trans only to show a problem):

- Sniper: Snipers (at least those I know) are usually a bit hesitant to be tanking characters, thus flee is not that important to them. In the present case - it is impossible to get a Dragon Manteau - they can still use an under[1] + pantie[1] combo (+5 agi vs +6 agi). 1 agi is simple to gain using a proper stat food. They do not gain a lot from this combo, in my opinion, though 2 def and 7 mdef is really nice. If they used the P[1]+U[1], that is.

- Agi SinX: Pantie[1] + Undershirt[1] are a very good flee option, but they can always go for Skin of Ventus + Gandora (10 flee + 5 flee + 1 agi) which is functionally better than pantie + undershirt combo in terms of flee and not vulnerable to armour loss (say, strip armour, quite popular on some maps). They do gain a lot from this combo - it beats their current highest flee from non-ToH items - but they can avoid panties + undershirt altogether. Dragon set gives them nicer mdef, but makes them vulnerable to armour stripping.

- Agi Stalker: They do not have access to Gandora, therefore they have to stick to the most expensive combination of pantie[1] + under[1]. If they use a Skin of Ventus, they will not have an armour giving flee natively. Male stalkers are kicked in the balls (female stalkers are just screwed) now with Manteau dropped by Nidhoggur MVP - they had no nice exclusive PVM item update since... <memory failure> and Dragon set would really buff stalkers with this nice +6 flee, 2 def and 7 mdef - and decent access to dragon vests which can be overupgraded, at last, unlike extremely expensive panties[1] (unless you are very rich).

There are also agi knights, but their situation is similar to stalkers', thus no need to make this post even longer.

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Now, I have to admit I cannot understand why Gravity hates PVM stalkers so much to give the nicest equipment to SinXes only (compare Black Cat to Cold Heart combos, please). Dragon combo is a way to level the field, as this is something which is 'the supreme thing' in terms of flee from all existing non-ToH items (and an improvement in def/mdef).
Placing Manteau as a 100% drop in an ultra-high level MVP means that for the regular server players this item does not exist at all, it would be better if it was a drop from a DB only monster - at least there would be a chance to get it.

If I was the one who implemented Nidhoggur Dungeon I would indeed move the Dragon Manteau from Draco - it completely destroys the pantie[1] + undershirt[1] values - but I would put it as a drop in range [0.6%, 10%] in Duneyrr. This mini-boss is quite difficult to kill, but it is possible either with very good equipment or with a good plan and coordination. As it is a boss, the spawn rate naturally regulates lower availability of the item on the market and it gives some of us a hope to get this combo one day ;-).

So... could you please tell me the reasoning behind placing a Manteau - a part of the set from which sin/rogue classes benefit the most - as a drop of a MVP agi characters can never kill?

It is not like HeRO is unbalanced in favor of agi characters to the point nobody would ever think of making a party without sins and rogues...

What did I miss? And why not Duneyrr? (I agree, Rata might be too simple to kill and it offers no incentive to go lower)

I love you, I have been feeling very much the same way about this situation.
If there could be some tweaks to this I would find myself a lot happier should I ever return. I was so excited about having a 186 aspd stalker with +7 agi food too over this...and now I can't have it. ;o;

It's because at the time the??the person who made the mobs did not have the actual drops and stats.

:x That's if you can get people to get out of Nameless/Sphinx 4 to go there in the first place. Perhaps the suggested change can correct that? Hey I'm allowed to dream Given the sudden Stalker obsession on heRO and all >_>

Sakurato Wrote:It's because at the time the??the person who made the mobs did not have the actual drops and stats.

Doesn't mean GM's could not change it when the actual data was given.
Its not like we cannot change it now for balancing purposes too. Its a new dungeon and should be allowed to have adjustments.

Didn't they intentionally delay it some (Though not nearly as much as it was) so they'd have that info? XD Or am I grasping the crazy ball again?

I think it's fine as is. Skin of ventus + avian wings gives a similar effect anyways (it actually would turn out BETTER in terms of the flee, and matches the agi) for almost the same price as slotted underpants and pantie combo.

Corporal Wrote:I think it's fine as is. Skin of ventus + avian wings gives a similar effect anyways (it actually would turn out BETTER in terms of the flee, and matches the agi) for almost the same price as slotted underpants and pantie combo.

Don't u mean the grapes are sour?

Sakurato Wrote:It's because at the time the??the person who made the mobs did not have the actual drops and stats.

Thanks for the answer :D!. This actually gives me hope. If the set was deliberately split to make it almost impossible to get and there were good arguments there would be no hope. But if this is just a result of a first implementation, if we present the proper and well-versed arguments we actually might have Dragon Manteau moved to something possible to kill by a 6-people-transcendent-party.

Fruityla Wrote::x That's if you can get people to get out of Nameless/Sphinx 4 to go there in the first place. Perhaps the suggested change can correct that?

I don't know... I have no problems with finding parties to any place I want ^^'. They are not 'the highest efficiency parties', but they are various, interesting and successful.
Please, accept our proposal... at least for read-only ;-). If you need details, I will gladly explain everything in PMs.

Corporal Wrote:I think it's fine as is. Skin of ventus + avian wings gives a similar effect anyways (it actually would turn out BETTER in terms of the flee, and matches the agi) for almost the same price as slotted underpants and pantie combo.

No, it does not work in the similar way.

Please consider the fact you usually require elemental armours in several locations. For example, it would be kind of funny to go to Thor1/3 without Pasana armour, Odin2 becomes much less difficult if you have a Bathory armour and I would just not take a non-99/70 stalker/sinX to Nidhoggur2 without a Bathory armour.

Avian Wings do not have a slot while Dragon Vest does. The fact Agi is a boolean defence (you are missed or you are hit and you (almost?) die) makes you really, really want the 80-95% flee range and monsters like Valk Incarnation in Dimensional Gorge kind of require an Agi holder to have a Bathory card. That is why we (me + T-chan) defaulted to the Undershirt[1] + Elemental Pantie set - easy to get (though horrible in cost), very customizable and gives really nice boni (bonuses?) in the area she needs.
Besides, no Valk Incarnation was kind enough to drop a SoV for us yet.

It is increasingly difficult to use Agi characters in the highest level dungeons and some people love playing those high flee characters. They do have a niche, as SW helps them a lot - and definitely HeRO has some neat customs which improve their potential (Evolved Small Ribbons, AdvMiniPropeller). Unfortunately, as you really require elemental armours (Agi == ~3x~4x-ish vit == low HP/low pot efficiency) you cannot really use Avian Wings on a fleetank. In Thor1, yes - 95% flee makes only 1 FireBreath out of statisticaly 20 kill a holder and this we decided to be a fair trade, as exp gain exceeded exp loss considerably. But I don't see especially Nidhoggur2 without Bathory armour to the point even I (a non-tanking priest) had to get one.

SoV + Avian Wings might be superior for snipers in terms of Agi, but snipers are not fleetanks - they kill stuff. If you are a tank, your damage is not that important - your survivability and ability to aggro enemies is.

Besides, if SoV + Avians are that good in terms of Agi + flee, now I really do not understand why Dragon Manteau should be a drop of a Nidhoggur MVP - there are alternatives, unless you are a fleetank and almost nobody parties Agi classes playing that way.

Btw, adding combo monks to the list of classes benefitting from Dragon combo.

Basically, this combo buffs the 'under-used' and underestimated PVM classes. Why break it? Why not let them be more useful and give more choice than just SoV (which will always be hellishly expensive because of a drop rate and no newish player will ever be able to get it)?

I completely disagree. Skin of Ventus, although not cheap, is approx 30m tops. If a new player wanted to get money, they should just be fishing and mining. Zeny is made to be dirt easy to get on this server; it's just people are lazy and don't want to put the time into it.

Edit: just to add, the skin is supposed to be a higher-end gear, which is why the drop rate is low in the first place swt.