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+--- Thread: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? (/showthread.php?tid=11287)
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Nidsrule - 09-03-2009
You make it sound like its such a trivial choice.
I can really only look at it from the perspective of DD/LoA, as NE and Revenga either aren't interested in Alde (at least in its current implementation) or they are still trying to prove themselves as a serious threat in trans WoE (so obviously would struggle to participate in both at once).
DD/LoA and behe/BS are the two "superpowers" of heRO WoE. Behe, being allied to BS, poses no threat to Alde. In trans WoE there is a fairly decent equilibrium between the two sides and with NE and Revenga pressuring both groups as well, things remain interesting. So let's say DD/LoA decided to let trans WoE take a back seat and they organize a force to take and hold Alde; who is left to keep behe in check? Revenga or NE might step up to take them on (and personally I think that would be a very one sided fight) but whichever guild remains will go unchallenged. Of course it isn't that simplistic but you get the idea.
There aren't enough guilds to keep all 3 castles busy at all times. Presumably you need 2 guilds/alliances per castle. If you count the part of BS that remains in Alde as being a separate guild, heRO currently has 5 guilds spread between 3 castles. Regardless of how you cut it, it's impossible to maintain action within all three castles and as it stands, people prefer to stick with trans WoE.
So DD/LoA start attacking Alde, they hold it, then what? They get to look forward to nothing but the same faces with every attack. Once either DD/LoA or BS establishes themselves at the top between the two of them, it's only a matter of time before the losing side gets bored of fighting the same people and losing and so they revert back to trans WoE. We end up with the same issue repeating itself.
Alde would need at least 3 guilds of around the same skill level to remain interesting. Since there is no sixth guild on the scene, that isn't going to happen without giving Alde it's own time slot so that all guilds can participate.
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Ardney Wolf - 09-03-2009
Ok, finally got around to reading everything in the thread. Going to toss my 2 cents in on a couple of points that stuck out at me.
1st up, Pistis keeps harping on the point that Ald doesn't divide people's forces, arguing that if they choose a castle to attack they are "all in" and shouldn't be anywhere else. This argument is flawed since it misses the entire point of WoE. The point of WoE is to hold castles. As many as you can. You want the castle's for the chests since they are the only source of God-item components. If you can take 1 castle and hold it, you do it. If you can take 2 castles and hold them, you do it. If I could take every castle on the server and leave the other guilds with none, I would do it and every single WoE guild would do the same. The only reason anyone ever stops at one is because they lack sufficient forces for both a secure defense and a strong offense. And each WoE, those who can separate some forces from defense to go attack, DO. Having to make separate chars to go WoE at Ald does split one's forces, so stop trying to argue that it doesn't. The merits of having the option of doing so are what's under discussion here.
The other point I wanted to address is some people's contention that the God-item components be removed from non-trans WoE even if it gets modified away from it's current state. I think that's ridiculous. The God-item components are the only items from castle chests that cannot be obtained through regular monster farming elsewhere (if memory serves). A non God-item drop from a castle treasure is by definition a consolation prize. Castle treasures exist to provide shots at these components for the most powerful items in game and they are fiercely fought over for a reason. As it is on this server, collecting those components is harder than normal because of the way castle treasures are mixed with each other. The odds of getting what you need are significantly reduced. A castle that didn't have the potential to drop a God-item component is a useless castle. The other drops can be farmed with far less effort as NPCs are easier opponents than humans.
To sum up my personal opinions, I dislike the concept of a non-trans WoE. I also feel that, if it had to be implemented because of demand, it was a mistake to exclude the Expanded classes. That being said, I also acknowledge that my feelings about WoE are not universal and obviously some people took advantage of the fact that there is non-trans WoE by getting themselves organized and securing their interests.
To demand that that niche be removed when you yourself are not willing to go in and fight them is hypocritical in my opinion. We can see the advantages as well as they can. The difference is they made the choice to capitalize on it. The main advantage the Ald castle currently has is one that we all afford them by our own actions. As long as peopel refuse to allocate resources to Ald, they will continue to have it easy. It is inconvenient to do so. There's no arguing that. But making tough cost/benefit decisions is the norm in WoE. Deal with it.
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Yuriohs - 09-03-2009
Basically putting what I saw in the poll side of the forum here, and putting my response here because it would be what I would have wrote anyway.
Force-Attuned Krogoth Wrote:I'm going to go out on a limb and speak from an outside perspective.??
This discussion, as has been pointed out, is turning into Bamboo vs World.??Bamboo is claiming that they actively participate, so there must be some demand.??The other side is claiming that it is not worth their time, yet it's simultaneously too valuable to be left alone.??From what I can see, many people think the monopoly should be broken, or at least threatened.??This, in itself, is a sensible reaction.??But what does the monopoly do that cannot be matched???All I know is, they keep some 98-99 chars without pushing them to meet the valkyrie.??Any person who's ever made a trans char can obviously make a nontrans.??I fail to see why it's so impossible to break the monopoly.
Don't blame the system for your unwillingness to act.
Yuriohs Wrote:How can a guild act without opening there defenses? If you look in the discussion thread (/swt why am I even quoting this)
What alot of people arn't getting is that there HAVE been teams from STD coming to alde, but it isn't enough. I never mentioned that bamboo didn't defend there castle ofc they do. I only say that they don't defend it against a real non trans guild, or anyone more than 8 people at one time.
I've sent people there, almost breaking alde, but failing. I'm coming up with a plan (if it doesn't get moved) so that Alde will be broken down, and farmed.
But I can't sacrifice key members of our defense, of the guild im ins defense just to break a castle that has 20 eco.
It seems like, people want us to break alde, leave pront alone, and let the other guilds get it.
Naaaaa bro, that will never be the case unless we get more people.
Heres an easy way to put it, even if behe and bamboo weren't allied note this would be the case if any guild had an ally non trans and trans guild.
Behe/STD have the largest turnouts on most of the WoE's.
When Apoc was still here, they allied with Behe.
Behe outnumbers STD
Behe+Apoc+some BS members = Wensday and Sunday WoE's.
We're outnumbered, and you want us to leave and move to alde WoE?
Again, Sophia, and Krogoth (all who agree with that idea) unless you want us to lose, your argument makes no sense.
BUT it is your opinion, so its all good cause thats mine.
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Ardney Wolf - 09-03-2009
Not sure who that was directed to Street, but if it was me then I'll just re-iterate. You say that if you had to attack Ald it would soften your Pront defense. To that I say:
Ardney Wolf Wrote:As long as people refuse to allocate resources to Ald, they [Bamboo] will continue to have it easy. It is inconvenient to do so [soften your defense by splitting forces]. There's no arguing that. But making tough cost/benefit decisions is the norm in WoE. Deal with it.
I'm torn on this, because on the one hand I see absolutely ZERO need for a non-trans WoE. Lower HP and fewer skill options? Why??
But that being said, it is a fact that there is a non-trans WoE at the moment and people have made a resource and time investment in it. You can argue all day about how large or small that investment is, but the fact is they made it and no one else did. To try to take that from them now through out of game maneuvering seems wrong to me. If they themselves decide to come out as a group and say "Ok, non-Trans WoE sucks, please change it" I'd be the 1st to jump on the 'scrap-it-entirely' bandwagon. But they haven't and I personally think that's their right.
[edit]Oh, and on a side-note...you guys outnumber Behemoth on Sundays (generally). We tend to outnumber you on Wednesdays (generally). That's what I've seen, anyway.
RE:??Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Yuriohs - 09-03-2009
Ardney Wolf Wrote:Not sure who that was directed to Street, but if it was me then I'll just re-iterate. You say that if you had to attack Ald it would soften your Pront defense. To that I say:
Ardney Wolf Wrote:As long as people refuse to allocate resources to Ald, they [Bamboo] will continue to have it easy. It is inconvenient to do so [soften your defense by splitting forces]. There's no arguing that. But making tough cost/benefit decisions is the norm in WoE. Deal with it.
I'm torn on this, because on the one hand I see absolutely ZERO need for a non-trans WoE. Lower HP and fewer skill options? Why??
But that being said, it is a fact that there is a non-trans WoE at the moment and people have made a resource and time investment in it. You can argue all day about how large or small that investment is, but the fact is they made it and no one else did. To try to take that from them now through out of game maneuvering seems wrong to me. If they themselves decide to come out as a group and say "Ok, non-Trans WoE sucks, please change it" I'd be the 1st to jump on the 'scrap-it-entirely' bandwagon. But they haven't and I personally think that's their right.
[edit]Oh, and on a side-note...you guys outnumber Behemoth on Sundays (generally). We tend to outnumber you on Wednesdays (generally). That's what I've seen, anyway.
Moving it to another day, would allow them to keep their same WoE, and allow other guilds who want to participate, to participate. I see what Sophia is talking about with guilds being able to abuse eco but theres a big difference.
The other guilds, won't have to sacrifice anything if its move it to another day therefore it will be easier for guilds to go.
I see only one problem with moving it to another day, and it was said earlier in this thread. That what if no one attacks the castle still? what if it still doesn't attract any attention?
It isn't the guilds who focus on Trans WoE's fault, that the current holder of alde, has been able to hold it successfully for a while.
The reason we complain about it is why do we have to sacrifice our members to stop something that (CAN) happen? Especially since there allied with the guild we are competing with.
side note:
Ardney, at the start of WoE, you all outnumber us on sundays lol trust me. Especially when you were allied with apoc.
I won't tell numbers, but if we sent guildies to alde,you all would be loling in alde.
Its way too much of a hassle, too much planning, for a guild, that already has to face a strong opponent, and they send a force to alde?
Its not our responsibility, that guilds don't come to non trans WoE. And if one guild decides to do it, take advantage of the castle not being attacked actively, that isn't our fault, we have enough on our plate as it is trying to handle our rival guild.
Same with Revenga and NE in my opinion.
RE: ??Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Ardney Wolf - 09-03-2009
See, it's statements like that that make me think we're pretty much on the same page about this, Street. We just have different opinions about the proper reaction.
You look at it and say "Let's change the game" I look at it and say "The game is what it is. People need to play differently" It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Force-Attuned Krogoth - 09-03-2009
One guild has decided Aldebaran is worth giving up trans woe. You come storming in claiming that it's impossible for any guild to make that choice. The solution is simple, it's staring you in the face, you don't want to take it, and thereby claim that nobody could take it. Yet all the while someone's waving to you from the other side. Someone HAS made that choice, and it IS possible. Why should they be punished for doing what you don't want to do?
Ardney has hit upon a point that rankles me. Because you don't want to compete and invest resources on the level that someone else did, you are trying to change the system to take it away from them. The fact remains that someone has taken the necessary interest. The only thing holding any trans woe guild back is their own continued interest in trans woe. This is not a one-time decision that was made back in the mists of time, it's something that every player can decide for himself twice a week. If you do not like the fact that Aldebaran is uncontested, there exist means to fight them. Instead, you choose to sit in your own world when the decision time comes, and after that you claim it's impossible just because you did not want to do it.
Yuriohs Wrote:Its not our responsibility, that guilds don't come to non trans WoE. And if one guild decides to do it, take advantage of the castle not being attacked actively, that isn't our fault, we have enough on our plate as it is trying to handle our rival guild.It's not their responsibility you don't see it as your responsibility. The choice is there for you to make. Every Sunday, and every Wednesday, you make the choice to leave them to their own, when it is entirely possible for you to go the other way. Why is Alde castle so much more a priority on Monday and Tuesday and Thursday and Friday and Saturday?
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - mahawirasd - 09-03-2009
<3 Krogoth and Pistis
and perhaps some people skipped some details, so just to reiterate:
1. non-trans WOE has an appeal that may not be all too appealing to too many people.
Less HP less gears less skills, why? Because it's fun.
Games, like life, is played out inside a frame of set rules. The goal is the same, to own, to be the best within that set of rules. But games tend to be more fun than life for a number of people because games, unlike life, have rules that are easy to identify and thus it becomes easier for people to play within those limits as they know for certain what they can and cannot do and thus they can manipulate all the things at their disposal more effectively to reach the goal.
Now you could go to Dominos and get a super supreme with everything or you can just get some salami and tomato sauce. More people seem to like the super supreme with everything, but does that mean that Dominos should erase the salami pizza from their menu?
2. Apparently the rewards promised from Alde is too low to really spur people to go there, perhaps pistis's idea might be a good idea to try out?
-w-
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Aaronock - 09-03-2009
I don't think simply raising eco will suddenly have an increased interest...The problem isn't about eco, if it were people would have been hitting Alde while the regular castles sat at 0.
RE: Why is Alde/Nontrans Castles There? - Jasper - 09-04-2009
Raising the eco would only make matters worse. Like Aaronock said, eco is not the problem here the problem is the lack of activity in alde. The only solution I see here is making alde on a different time slot. Then if everyone has an opportunity to fight at non-trans then raising the eco could be an option.
I noticed that people are saying "well if you dont like the alde eco then why don't you do something about it" and believe me if it were that easy they would. Behe/STD/Revanga/NE all work to hold a castle and blow resources. They fight every woe to maintain their castle hence the 100 eco. In alde, making eco to 100 would not change a thing and just make the current situation even worse. I highly doubt that any of the real woe guilds would create a "non-trans" unit to go maintain alde. (and yes I said real woe guilds, the ones that actually use resources.)